Posts by Doug Mason

13

Notes I drafted for a local JW at a cart

by Doug Mason in

in recent weeks, a grizzled old man, obviously harmless, has been engaging with a nice lady as she regularly stands by her cart displaying watchtower material.. on monday, she eagerly wanted to know what this old man thought of the book she gave him, "what does the bible really teach?".

when this old man posed some questions, she was very keen for him to write them down.. she also promised to provide facts that earthquakes proved we are living in the last days.. anyway, to make a short story longer, the old man drafted questions and observations on the topics that were covered.. would you please criticise the stuff that this old man has drafted for his next encounter.

any help, anything at all, is most keenly looked for.

Doug Mason

In recent weeks, a grizzled old man, obviously harmless, has been engaging with a nice lady as she regularly stands by her cart displaying Watchtower material.

On Monday, she eagerly wanted to know what this old man thought of the book she gave him, "What Does the Bible Really Teach?". When this old man posed some questions, she was very keen for him to write them down.

She also promised to provide facts that earthquakes proved we are living in the Last Days.

Anyway, to make a short story longer, the old man drafted questions and observations on the topics that were covered.

Would you please criticise the stuff that this old man has drafted for his next encounter. Any help, anything at all, is most keenly looked for. The idea is to hit hard while the door is ajar, even slightly.

http://www.jwstudies.com/Questions_and_observations_given_to_a_JW_Cart.pdf

Doug

9

Tishri

by Doug Mason in

at this moment, we are in the jewish month of tishri.

it is the first month of the civil calendar and is the 7th month.. research quickly shows its deep religious significance, including solemn feasts such as the day of atonement, gedaliah, etc.:.

https://www.bible-history.com/the-sacred-year-of-israel/the-sacred-year-of-israel_tishri.htm.

Doug Mason

Yes, there is doubt that the Hebrews/Jews viewed sacrifice in the same way that evolved in Christianity. The purpose of the blood in the Day of Atonement was to cleanse the sanctuary of sins that had already been transferred from the penitent sinner.

Under the Jews' dispensation, was blood always required for a sinner to be forgiven?

Further to my thoughts that the NT's soteriological fulfilment related to the festivals of Tishri (September/October) rather than Passover at Nisan (March/April), I find support in the NT book of Hebrews. Its metaphors such as "the high priest entering once with blood" relate to Tishri's Day of Atonement.

It is my highly speculative hypothesis that the primitive Church found it advantageous to absorb existing pagan/gentile Spring festivals and to distance themselves from the Jews and their concentrated list of religious observances during Tishri (Autumn - September/October).

Doug

9

Tishri

by Doug Mason in

at this moment, we are in the jewish month of tishri.

it is the first month of the civil calendar and is the 7th month.. research quickly shows its deep religious significance, including solemn feasts such as the day of atonement, gedaliah, etc.:.

https://www.bible-history.com/the-sacred-year-of-israel/the-sacred-year-of-israel_tishri.htm.

Doug Mason

Hi Simon,

Or it's like the Watchtower writing its own history.

Doug

9

Tishri

by Doug Mason in

at this moment, we are in the jewish month of tishri.

it is the first month of the civil calendar and is the 7th month.. research quickly shows its deep religious significance, including solemn feasts such as the day of atonement, gedaliah, etc.:.

https://www.bible-history.com/the-sacred-year-of-israel/the-sacred-year-of-israel_tishri.htm.

Doug Mason

Not one NT writer either saw or heard Jesus.

Paul, the earliest, died in 64 CE. He received his "information" through visions.

The writers of the Gospels are unknown. The earliest, attributed to Mark, is not claimed to be by a Disciple. It was written about 40 years after Jesus lived.

The anonymous Gospel attributed to Matthew was written about 15 years after "Mark". By then, the Jerusalem Jews had been defeated and dispersed. "Matthew" might have been written in Alexandria or in Syria.

"Luke", also not a Disciple, evolved up to as late as 120 CE, along with Acts (a recognised fiction).

"John" was created by the Johannine Community late in the 1st century, following its expulsion from the synagogue over their High Christology.

1 Peter was written by a follower of Paul late in the 1st century.

2 Peter was composed in the middle of the 2nd century.

Doug

9

Tishri

by Doug Mason in

at this moment, we are in the jewish month of tishri.

it is the first month of the civil calendar and is the 7th month.. research quickly shows its deep religious significance, including solemn feasts such as the day of atonement, gedaliah, etc.:.

https://www.bible-history.com/the-sacred-year-of-israel/the-sacred-year-of-israel_tishri.htm.

Doug Mason

At this moment, we are in the Jewish month of Tishri. It is the first month of the Civil calendar and is the 7th month.

Research quickly shows its deep religious significance, including solemn feasts such as the Day of Atonement, Gedaliah, etc.:

https://www.bible-history.com/the-sacred-year-of-israel/the-sacred-year-of-israel_tishri.htm

I am fully aware that I am swimming against the mighty tide, but I suggest that symbolically for Christendom, that the "sacrifice" of Jesus relates to the Jewish festivals of Tishri (Sept/Oct) more than it does to the Passover at Nisan (March/April).

Terms such as "propitiation", "mercy seat", "high priest", "atonement", all reference Tishri. And palm fronds would be available for the crowd at the end of Summer.

Also: did any "Last Supper/Memorial" actually take place, let alone in Nisan (March/April)?

Apostle Paul was the earliest NT writer. He claims that he obtained his information directly from "the Lord", not from any human source. It is he, therefore who introduced the idea of this "Final ('Memorial') Meal". It is he who described events taking place at that Meal. The later writers of the Gospels copied and embellished Paul's creative imagination.

Not one NT writer was present at that Meal yet they were able to recount events in some detail.

Doug

4

In which month did Jesus die?

by Doug Mason in

i am putting this out as an idea, as something to think about.. this assumes that the death and claimed resurrection of jesus has soteriological significance.

i am not seeking comments on the veracity of that position, nor with endeavouring to identify any model that provides an "explanation".. i am simply asking, did jesus die in nisan (march/april = "easter") or would it have had proper soteriological significance if the events took place in tishri (september/october)?.

is it possible - and i doubt there is any way of knowing - that the early christians found it useful to incorporate existing pagan "spring" festivals, as this enabled them to differentiate themselves from the jews' heavy focus on tishri?.

Doug Mason

I am putting this out as an idea, as something to think about.

This assumes that the death and claimed resurrection of Jesus has soteriological significance. I am not seeking comments on the veracity of that position, nor with endeavouring to identify any Model that provides an "explanation".

I am simply asking, Did Jesus die in Nisan (March/April = "Easter") or would it have had proper soteriological significance if the events took place in Tishri (September/October)?

Is it possible - and I doubt there is any way of knowing - that the early Christians found it useful to incorporate existing Pagan "Spring" festivals, as this enabled them to differentiate themselves from the Jews' heavy focus on Tishri?

Yom Kipur/Day of Atonement, celebrated in Tishri, would seem to better represent the claimed soteriological significance of Jesus' death than a Passover lamb, which served only to mark those who were about to endure pursuit by Egypt, privations in the wilderness, and ongoing persecutions by powerful neighbours.

Doug

5

NT citations and allusions to Apocrypha

by Doug Mason in

documents produced during the second temple period included writings such as 1 enoch, jubilees, and sirach.

apostle paul lived during the very late stage of that period.the first century jews, including those who accepted jesus as the promised messiah, regarded these writings very highly.this list provides the locations in the new testament documents that either cite or allude to these second temple writings.. http://www.jwstudies.com/nt_citation_and_allusions_to_apocrypha.pdf .

Doug Mason

Documents produced during the Second Temple Period included writings such as 1 Enoch, Jubilees, and Sirach. Apostle Paul lived during the very late stage of that Period.

The first century Jews, including those who accepted Jesus as the Promised Messiah, regarded these writings very highly.

This list provides the locations in the New Testament documents that either cite or allude to these Second Temple writings.

http://www.jwstudies.com/NT_Citation_and_Allusions_to_Apocrypha.pdf

10

Is Satan real and all this powerful?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

wikipedia article on jehovah's witnesses:satanjehovah's witnesses believe that satan was originally a perfect angel who developed feelings of self-importance and craved worship.

satan influenced adam and eve to disobey god, and humanity subsequently became participants in a challenge involving the competing claims of jehovah and satan to universal sovereignty.

other angels who sided with satan became demons.jehovah's witnesses teach that satan and his demons were cast down to earth from heaven after october 1, 1914, at which point the end times began.

Doug Mason

Satan was invented when the 6th century BCE Monotheists gained ascendancy.

Before then, by far the largest number of people accepted the existence of several gods. The monotheists are responsible for the Hebrew Bible that we read today, and they freely acknowledge that the people worshipped several Gods, including theirs (Baal, Asherah, etc.)

When the monotheists came to power, they ran into the problem of the existence of "badness". Previously, the people had any number of gods who could be blamed, so now they had to invent a scenario that put YHWH at arm's length from "badness". Check the www for the word: Theodicy

Gradually, this "son of God", Satan, became personified in writings such as 1 Enoch and Jubilees.

I take issue with any idea that Satan was in the Garden of Eden story. That idea was invented in the 2nd century CE, after the writing of the Scriptures.

When the Septuagint was written in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE, they imported the Greek word Diabolos (meaning: Devil).

Satan was never known in the Scriptures as "Lucifer". That word means the planet Venus, the Bright Morning Star (the name given to Jesus in the Book of Revelation).

Doug

14

The people who decided the Scriptures

by Doug Mason in

many people over many centuries have been involved in deciding which documents were scripture.

there has never been unanimous agreement, including today.

only the church of rome took a vote on the canon.

Doug Mason

Hi doubtful,

I posed the same situation to a JW at a cart on Monday.

He trotted out 2 Timothy 3:16 and I asked him, "When was 2 Timothy written and when was any Canon first recognised?"

I pointed out that 2 Timothy was written centuries before any Bible, to which he responded that it was talking about "Scriptures". So I asked him: "Who determined what was Scripture?"

He responded with: "That's a good question".

It is pure circular reasoning to say that whatever the Bible says is true because the writers said it was true.

Doug

14

The people who decided the Scriptures

by Doug Mason in

many people over many centuries have been involved in deciding which documents were scripture.

there has never been unanimous agreement, including today.

only the church of rome took a vote on the canon.

Doug Mason

Many people over many centuries have been involved in deciding which documents were Scripture. There has never been unanimous agreement, including today. Only the Church of Rome took a vote on the Canon. Protestants rely on Tradition.

The lists of books that today are considered to be Scripture vary between Protestant, Roman Catholic and the various iterations of the Orthodox communities.

http://www.jwstudies.com/The_people_who_decided_the_Scriptures.pdf